Welcome to another edition of Puntabulous Guest Debates! Today I am pleased to welcome Brian from the online magazine Spangle Magazine! Spangle is Cleveland and Northeast Ohio’s premier source for arts, entertainment and culture for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender communities. Get your dork hats on because today we are going to tackle a topic that would bring a tear to any science fiction lover’s eye:
WHICH IS THE BEST STAR TREK MOVIE?
Brian: So what’s the best Star Trek movie? If we’re going to debate that, look no further than the acting. We might as well ignore the Original vs. Next Generation casting, as that’s a whole other debate. So let’s look at guest stars. You want the easy route? Rely on the “Very-Important-Actor” gimmick: Throw Academy Award nominees (F. Murray Abraham, Alfre Woodard, Whoopi Goldberg and James Cromwell) or Stage People (Donna Murphy, Christopher Plummer and Tom Hardy) in a room together. Now you want to talk about rising above a challenge? That’s Wrath of Khan, which created film history by casting Mr. Roarke, the future star of Veronica’s Closet and an actress whose next biggest role was famously described by Ouiser Boudreaux as “two pigs fightin’ under a blanket.” And when you overcome those long odds? That’s an achievement, son.
Craig: Your argument reminds me of my Elementary School Graduation. After all the awards like the Math Award and the Art Award and the Science Award (which I got, thank you very much) were given out, the principal got up on stage and gave out the “Principal’s Choice Award” to all the students “who always gave their best”. And you know who got those awards? That’s right. The kids who didn’t get any other awards. So basically you want me to believe that Wrath of Khan is the best because all the actors suck? Or something? I wasn’t really following. First Contact is so unbelievably the best Star Trek movie. It has the best villains, the best special effects, the best captain, and now that you mention it, the best actors.
Brian: Well, Gov. Palin, you’ve certainly got me beat, what with your extraordinary debate tactic of citing lies and exaggerations as the Gospel. (Thank you, though, for mentioning Elementary School Graduations — I took home nine awards from Lakeridge Elementary that day, including Math, Art, Writing and, yes, Science. Nine times as many as any other fifth-grader that afternoon.) We could be here all week while I pick apart the four untruths of that last sentence of yours, but let’s just start with the first — best villain?! Yes, let’s take the most bad-ass TV sci-fi villains ever, throw out their entire frightening hive-mind mythology, and give them a queen. A queen who, by the way, apparently can be killed with bare hands and then miraculously show up in a shitty UPN spin-off a few years later. Ultimately, though, the problem is that the bad-ass became weak-ass because their actions have no lasting consequences; the only person of importance offed by the Borg is new lieutenant and sacrificial offering Neal McDonough. (His four lines are awesome. Just awesome.) Khan? Khan’s actions send the Enterprise to the scrap yard; massacre trainees, including Scotty’s nephew; and kill, in a devastating scene — spoiler alert — SPOCK!
Craig: Oh I’m sorry. Are the Borg not threatening enough? Because besides killing Atlantic City Film Festival’s award winning Best Actor Neal McDonough, the Borg also killed the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE and assimilated them into the Borg hive before the valiant crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise E went back in time and defeated them. And what’s wrong with having a Borg Queen? Every great hive needs a Queen to bring order to the chaos. Oh, unless you judge a villain by their breasts. I’m pretty sure the Queen’s were robotic, which might not be your thing. But if you love enormous plastic man boobs, then by all means Ricardo Mantalban’s Khan is by far the superior villain. Seriously, what are with those things? They’re bigger than Uhura’s, Saavik’s, and Scotty’s combined. And don’t even get me started on that “devastating” death scene that actually didn’t mean a damn thing because he was brought back to life in the next movie. Nice life or death consequences! Oh, except that death part.
Brian: Quoth Leonard Nimoy, on page 200 of I, Spock: “An interesting sidebar: As Khan, Montalban wore a costume that showed off his chest, which was so impressively developed that many viewers speculated it might be a false breastplate. I’m here to tell you: It most definitely wasn’t! Those were Montalban’s enviable pecs.” But of course, we’ve learned from a previous guest debate about your aversion to exercise, so we can’t count on you for a fair appreciation of Montalban’s mass. Speaking of ta-tas, let’s talk about that boob of a director, Jonathan Frakes — otherwise known as “Two Takes Frakes” by his actors. How about a third take, Riker? Perhaps you wouldn’t end up with so many ass line readings, such as Brent Spiner’s: “Sir, I think I speak for everyone when I say: To hell with our orders.” Painful. Can I please turn my emotion chip off?
Craig: Oh no you didn’t! You did not just make fun of Data’s lines. Because everything coming out of Data’s mouth is pure genius. But then again, I suppose when you’re used to the schtick that’s in Wrath of Khan (Oh look! The silly Russian man-boy doesn’t know how to properly enunciate the letter V! LOL!) the cleverness of First Contact might not be your cup of tea (Earl Grey. Hot.). And what’s so bad about only having two takes? When you have actors like Patrick Stewart and crew you don’t have to have more than two takes. Would you care to tell the world renowned classically trained actor that he should try it once again? But wait, weren’t you the one who said that Wrath of Khan was better because of the crappy actors? (Which I still haven’t quite figured out.) And Jonathan Frakes isn’t just an awesome (and quick!) director, he’s a star too! Who directed Wrath of Khan? Hold on, I have to look it up. Nicholas Meyer. Who’s that? His last directing credit was the 1999 TV film Vendetta. Guess things haven’t worked out too well for him. It’s sad to think that Wrath of Khan was a high point in his career. I would have thought you could only go up after that.
Brian: “Because everything coming out of Data’s mouth is pure genius”?!?! Evidence A: Ol’ Yellow Eyes is Back. Data’s stunt album of old pop standards, released and quickly sent to the trash heap in 1991. And that’s all I really need to say about that.
Craig: Oh do you even understand the door you just opened? Because if we’re going to talk about music albums by Star Trek actors how about we discuss the utter shitfest of the original crew’s musical endeavors? You haven’t lived until you heard William Shatner’s version of “Mr. Tambourine Man”. And I say that because once you hear it, you’ll go back in time and mix in a day-after-pill in your mom’s scrambled eggs the day after your conception to ensure that you’re never born. And then there is THIS which I just have no words. No words. Brent Spiner singing “When I Fall In Love” doesn’t sound so bad now, does it? Need another reason to love First Contact? Worf. No one in the original crew matches his badassery. “Assimilate this!” Boo ya!
Brian: Ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Bad ass? Worf is defeated in battle when someone … punctures his space suit. That’s not bad ass, that’s just bad writing. And since we’ve already addressed poor dialogue, let’s mention some other poor plot points. For instance, only Picard knows how to defeat the Borg cube, but he keeps that information to himself. What, he couldn’t have pulled out his Blackberry and texted Starfleet the information? And then he destroys the deflector dish, but the ship manages to zoom back to the future without protective shields? Lame, and just bad physics. Ultimately, here’s why Khan is superior: It’s epic, but simple. Man vs. man. Hero vs. villain. A bloody, brutal fight to the finish that effectively destroys two ships, two crews and an entire nebula. And yet there is cathartic rebirth in the ending. Perfection.
Craig: Defeated in battle? Um, he was incapacitated for like, maybe a second, before he stitched up the hole using the amputated arm of a Borg drone that he cut off himself. That my friend, is badass. And you call Kirk and Khan’s showdown a bloody, brutal fight? You mean a fight where the hero and villain never even meet face to face? Yeah, that sounds really epic. More like septic! Hey-yo! At least Picard had the courage to face the Borg Queen herself in his daring plan to rescue Data from her evil robotic clutches. Star Trek: First Contact doesn’t end with a whiz bang space ship battle. No, that’s too easy and predictable. First Contact ended with three people in a room. Redefining what it means to be human. Dueling it out with little more than the power of the human mind. And to me, there is nothing more epic.
Brian: Oh noooooo! We wouldn’t want a whiz-bang space-ship battle to end a science fiction movie … set in space. That would be tewwible. Also, Picard’s daring plan to rescue Data is about as daring as President Bush’s plan to save the economy: Walk into a room filled with the people who are actually in charge and say, “Pretty please?” Also, which powerful human mind saved the day? I recall that it was Data’s decidedly non-human, android CPU. But as my red light is flashing and our moderator is glaring at me off-camera, I can’t waste any more time trying to debunk your lies and half-truths. Instead, I shall simply say this: Wrath of Khan beget Search for Spock, which beget The Voyage Home — an honest-to-goodness trilogy of Trek heaven that has never been attempted since. First Contact led to Insurrection, which led to Nemesis, which pretty much led to Paramount sending the entire series into a slingshot around the sun in hopes that the Original crew could save the sorry mess the Trekiverse has become. And that sad legacy is the simple truth of why you are wrong.
Craig: Wait a second. So Wrath of Khan is better than First Contact because it led up to the far more awesome (but still not as awesome as First Contact) Voyage Home? Frankly that line of thinking is rather… illogical. Yes, Insurrection and Nemesis were less than satisfactory follow-ups, but why should that impact the superiority of First Contact? First Contact has a better crew, a stronger villain, and a far more engaging story than any other Trek in history. And that little “slingshot around the sun” remark of your’s is old school Trek, made in a time when audiences weren’t smart enough to think about why in hell would slingshotting around the sun send you back in time. People these days (the Next Generation of movie-watchers, one might say) expect a bit more from their movies. Could you imagine Shatner’s hammy, scene-chewing dialogue hitting the big screen nowadays? It would get laughed right out of the theater. People enjoy Wrath of Khan because they grew up with it. They forgive it’s (many) flaws because it brings them back to their childhood. It was the first Star Trek movie that really had the scope that Trek fans wanted, and for that, I can respect it. But it’s time for Wrath of Khan to be put of to pasture. First Contact is here to stay.
So who do you guys think won?
Be sure to head over to Brian’s site: Spangle Magazine!
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I’m sorry, the geek meter was blaring so loudly I could barely hear either of you.
Oh, Mary, this is a tough call. While overall I enjoy the Next Generation’s acting skills more, I have to say that Khan had more meat (or pecs) on its bones. I did think First Contact underused its talent pool.
And I’m just so tickled to see FAF debating you, albeit under the pseudonym of his birth name, that I’m going to have to go with him on this one.
I gotta go with Brian on this one, Craig. Not only because he’s a fellow Ohioan and therefore an intelligent and thoughtful individual who is made wise by the wafting of mutant-inducing polutants off the Lake Erie shore, but simply because he’s right — Wrath of Khan rocks. Completely. (“mmmKhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!”)
And, hey, let’s not be dissin’ the voice-recording capabilities of our old-school Trek actors. Shatner released the Ben Folds-produced album “Has Been” back in 2004 to surprising critical acclaim. And it really is brilliant. His cover of Pulp’s “Common People” is considered to be better than the original. Look it up on iTunes sometime. It’s very cool. He has a great balance of serious stuff and totally making fun of himself. His song with Henry Rollins is a riot.
Please don’t make me choose between my two favorite Star Trek movies!!!!!
Based purely on the debate, I choose Craig as the winner because of his pictures.
Well, sorry Craig but I too am going with Brian, although your picture of you putting your head on a la the Borg Queen was pretty amazing. But Khan was a classic. Well done guys.
“And I say that because once you hear it, you’ll go back in time and mix in a day-after-pill in your mom’s scrambled eggs the day after your conception to ensure that you’re never born.” Damn Craig, are you driving out to Ohio now to kill Brian yourself or are you going to place a hit on him? I love when you get viscious!!!! That line alone has me voting for you as the WINNER.
Craig wins. Because he is awesome. And for the Sucky -> Suckier picture. The “V” made me think “Vagina,” which is most definitely suckier.
Hey! Adam doesn’t count! He’s related! I’m going to appeal to the courts and have his vote disqualified on the grounds that it’s gravely prejudicial and that he doesn’t update his blog often enough.
}}:-(> ——> (klingon)
Oh, and another reason why “Khan” totally rocks: Uhura’s majorly hot.
Even in Heroes she’s still gorgeous and she’s, like, in her 70′s.
Brian totally wins on the points he makes, but Craig wins on the quality of his photos. In the end, I’ll have to go with Brian. Because I enjoy Shatner’s music.
I am home sick today and just turned to the Space channel and they are going to have the Trek-mas movie marathon on Christmas day starting at 6:30 am (we are NEVER up that early – even on Christmas), but they will have all 10 Star Trek movies. They even mention “The Wrath of Khan” specifically.
Tam: Nothing says Christmas like an alien bug in your ear, I always say.
Word has it it’s going to be the next Trek Hallmark ornament.
Dave: Just reading that makes me hunch my shoulder up to my ear. I HATE that part. Ewwwww. Now I’ve got the heebie jeebies.
Dave S: Fellow Ohioan should not be a claim made proudly. Let’s look at some examples from Ohio that have trouble winning the Big one…The Browns (and they are my team!) can’t get their act together, the Cavaliers can’t win in the end, even with the best player in hoops, The Michael Stanley Band for years almost hit the big time (outside of Ohio) but could never break into the big time rock and roll world. I could keep going but let’s not discredit Brian while he has a chance, it is hard enough to beat Craig in a debate…
That swooshing sound some may have heard was this debate going right over my head. The names of the movies sound familiar to me but I don’t think I have seen them, or if I did, I don’t remember anything about them. I think I watched most of my Star Trek incidentally while channel surfing.
Um… so… I liked the photos…
Dave S: Votes don’t count if you don’t update your blog, huh, Mr November 17th?!
If that’s the case, I’d have to say Adam’s vote for me counts since he’s updated more recently than you. Sorry, but your vote for Brian has been voided!
Plus it helps that he made the right choice!
Craig: D’oh! Though not to make you feel inadvertently bad, but my grandfather passed away over the Thanksgiving holiday, so I’m behind in my updates.
It wasn’t unexpected — he was a ripe ol’ 92 and in hospice care, but I was helping my mom work out all the residual details and stuff.
But coming this week on LotC: An awesome story/review of Evan Darst!
So I think I’ll play the simpathy card with the court and void your voiding of my attempt at voiding.
I’m sure I could work up some tears… Tito, give me a tissue.
Ew. Rereading all that voiding makes it sound more like bowel evacuation than vote disqualification.
Hayden: Whoa. Low blow. Besides I thought we deported the Browns to the nether regions of the Upper Peninsula where they play competitive four-square on the playground at Sault St. Marie Elementary. I think they’re ranked right below the Science Club and just above Brownie Troop 312.
And, hey, Columbus is home to the Major League Soccer champions, the Columbus Crew! Woohoo!!
I have to go with Craig because Brian didn’t do his homework! They did not destroy the Enterprise’s deflector dish, Picard even says that the Borg are building their contraption ON TOP of the deflector dish. Plus, First Contact kicks a cube-load of ass!
I think this may be one of the most difficult debates to determine the winner. Wrath of Khan is a sentimental favorite and a great movie, but I also *loved* First Contact.
I’m going to go with Craig on this one, because I enjoyed First Contact more. The Borg Queen is awesome and she was played by Alice Krige, who I’ve always thought is the hotness.
Did you 2 nerd-wanna-bees even watch those movies? Couldn’t you have debated on the merits of the movies alone instead of pulling out the best boy’s hemoroids?
Better opening scene shock:
Kirstie Allie destroying the Enterprise vs. Picard is a Borg, twice! Winner: Khan, just because it takes so agonizingly long for the scene to come to an end
Better villain entrance:
Khan peeling of his helmet vs. Borg Queen being united with her suit. Winner: First, duh, (Great re-enactment Craig)
Best Captain freak out:
Kirk’s: Khaaaaannnnnnnnn vs Picard mowing down the Borg on the holo-deck: Winner: Khan, I hated Picard in that scene
Best female side-kick:
Kirk’s Ex: Now can I cook or can’t I? vs Alfre Woodard’szzzzzzzzz Winner: Khan, Ex even pulls Kirk’s son out of the bag and what exactly does Alfre do?
Best scientific achievement:
Cooking planets vs. first contact: Winner: Khan, Khan’s lead’s to Spock’s eventual resurrection in the next movie, First’s leads to nothing, even without that movie we wouldn’t all look like Swedish Tennis-players
Best finale:
wounded Enterprise heading for the Nebula, hiding, outmaneuvering Khan in the fog, all but destroying Khan’s ship, having to escape the effect of the Genesis probe, Spock sacrificing himself, Enterprise just in time zooming away, Spock dying vs. Data’s torpedos miss the human space-ship, Data destroying the Borg with the coolant, zzzzzz. Winner: Khan, what’s described up there is at least 30 min of nail-biting excitement vs. 20 seconds of pay-off in First.
Best movie: Khan vs First. Winner Khan, 5:1
Brian vs. Craig: Loser: tie.
john: Alice Krige is totally kick-ass. Remember when she played an alien back on The Six Million Dollar Man? Those eyes totally captivated me as a kid…
Dave S.: For me it was Ghost Story. Ooo, that was a creepy movie. Her eyes and the way she talks, mmmm, makes me melt.
Never one to follow-up comment, yet I must step in.
Antonio: Yes, the Borg were building the device on top of the deflector dish, but the ENTIRE POINT of that scene was Picard, Worf and Red Shirt disconnecting the deflector dish, sending it off into space, and blowing it up.
bernd: You’re such a charmer.
I never saw a Star Trek movie. But this was funny.
But I can’t really say who won, so I’ll let Craig pick for me.
Bernd: That’s brilliant.
Wow Bernd, you know your Trek. Well done.
Bernd: For Best Captain Freak out, I’d rather use the later scene between Picard and Lily, which is far superior to Kirk’s:
“No! Noooooooooo! [Smashes glass and model ships with his phaser] I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We’ve made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make them pay for what they’ve done.”
Antonio: I hate to say it, but I just looked it up, and Brian’s right. They release the whole deflector dish into space and blow it up. But I don’t know enough about starship physics to know how losing that should effect the rest of the movie.
Enrico: You pick me.
WInner is Criaggers, hands down. I didn’t really read the arguments, cause I didn’t need to. OBVIOUSLY First Contact kicks any of the other movies’ ass. The Borg, HELLO, Best. Star. Trek. Villains. EVER.
Although, I was qite impressed by Criaggers awesomely done photos.
HUGS…
Craiggers: the deflector dish is what projects some sort of forcefield, or what have you, in front of the ship to push aside all the little space rocks, and pebbles, and debris and boulders out there that would otherwise cause a bit of damage when they plow into the ship’s hull as it’s traveling through space at warp speeds. Without it, I don’t imagine its safe to travel…unless maybe you’ve got the shields up all the time?
-Lt. Polt, of the Starfleet Engineering Corps, 27th Geek Division.
HUGS…
Craig, true, better Picard freak-out but still Khan wins:
Khan: I’ll leave on this rock buried alive. BURIED ALIVE
Kirk: Khaaaannnnnnnn
Picard’s is a petulant child fighting for his toy on a playground with his mommy, not with the bullies, but Kirk’s is only acted to fool Khan. Game, Set, Match: Kirk
I’ve actually seen both of these movies, but all I remember is:
Wrath of Khan: Spock dies
First Contact: Jean Luc Picard is in it
Then again, do I really *need* to remember anything more than that? So I’ve got to vote for First Contact because, well, just because. But Brian gets total bonus points because he’s wearing a tiara in one photo and I love tiaras. I have one here at work in my office.
Craig Wins! no ifs ands or buts about it. the original cast/movies don’t hold a candle to Picard and crew
Wow. What a hard choice. However, I have to give it to TWOK because seeing that in the movies (kicking and screaming because I really wanted to see ET again instead!) is what got me into ST in the first place. And, even as I’m sitting here typing this, I’m getting all gooey and sentimental over Kirk’s Tale of Two Cities quote at the end and him saying that “it was something Spock was trying to tell me on my birthday.” That’s it, I’m officially tearing up now.
Hmmmm…not an easy pick. My own personal favorite is VI, mostly for the interesting practice of including everyone’s signature at the end.
I think I’ll have to toss my vote to Craig on this one, simply because First Contact didn’t have any scenes of space slugs crawling into people’s ears.
It’s a close race! 9 to 6 in favor of First Contact, not counting Enrico’s, which will only count in the event of a tie
dorkiest debate ever, by a long shot. well done you two.
Hmm, ya know, I’ve just realized that Brian looks a bit like the guy playing the Doctor just prior to the current one. Christopher somebody or other.
But I think Brian looks better in a tiara.
HUGS…
Wait they made a movie about star trek?! Was it that attack of the clones movie…..?
only in a tie?! It’s like my vote doesn’t even matter
: (
Now wouldn’t it be sweet if there really was a tie?
Polt: You’re right, he does resemble Christopher Eccleston.
Good job Brian (love the tiara), but I have to side with Craig. Craig, I will always have your back because (obviously) I love you the most : ).
The scary bitch photo makes me happy.
And Shatner singing! I’m not sure whether my favorite is “Mr. Tambourine Man” or “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds” (A GIRL with kaleiiiiiidoscope eeyes). Yes, I have both on CD.
john: I remember Alice Krige best from Stephen King’s Sleepwalkers.
Oh dear, my misspent early childhood, think 8-10, watching The Next Generation. Craig is clearly the winner in my book, because new is always better than old.
Best use of visuals in debate: Craig
Best Robot Chicken parody: First Contact
Craig wins.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks FIRST CONTACT isn’t very good.
And I’m not just saying that because Brians need to stick together.
Anybody out there besides me that thinks STAR TREK VI is a vile piece of poopy? Because, honestly, I’d almost rather sit through the torture known as STAR TREK V than spend a single second suffering through UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY again.
Is Enrico now Vice Puntabulous?
Ryan R: Heeeeeell no. No offense to Enrico of course.
Brian F: I like 6 better than 2, but 5 better than both of them.
Spock doing The Legend Of Bilbo Baggins…there are no words. Certainly the strangest thing I’ve seen this week, possibly this whole month. What the heck was going on in the 60′s?
This is of course my new favorite video.
[...] from Spangle Magazine — who you may remember from the Star Trek debate I kicked his ass in — was in town so we were able to meet up for the first time and grab a [...]