People ask me all the time, “Craig, are you really Joss Whedon in disguise?” Yes, we’ve both created adored television shows, beloved characters, and written and directed hit movies. And yes, you’ve never seen us both in the same place at the same time. In fact, you can probably drop that whole “at the same time” because frankly, you’ve probably never seen us at the same place period. But alas, I am not actually Joss Whedon. Here’s why:
When I first wrote my novel (does calling it “my novel” make me sound pretentious?) I killed off a minor character without much fanfare at all. An axe to the chest (yes, it is a children’s story, thank you very much) and he was a goner. Poor guy. He didn’t even have a name! This minor character spent some time off the page with another major character, and you could tell that character was upset by the red shirt’s death, but you never really knew why since the book is told from the perspective of the mainest (totally a word) character, like the Harry Potter novels. Speaking of, didn’t you hate when there was a huge battle going on, and you had to follow Harry to some random secluded place to have a boring confrontation instead? Um hello! We all wanted to read about how much ass Hermione was kicking! But I digest…
As I was doing my editing, I realized a large part of the story was missing by not telling what these two characters were doing together off the page. So I inserted a chapter told from the other major character’s point of view detailing their mini adventure together. I even gave old red shirt a name! (No, not Engineer Olsen.) But poor old red shirt still had to die. But now that I knew and loved this character, a quick meaningless death seemed so undignified. So I’ve added a bit of Boromir type heroics in death and a sad farewell just to up the emotional ante a bit. I realize it’s totally cliché and maybe a bit overdone, but I just can’t let a character die without giving them a proper (read: cry your eyes out) sendoff.
Which brings me back to only shred of incontrovertible evidence that proves I’m not Joss Whedon. Seriously people, enough with the autograph requests! He is notorious for quick meaningless deaths. Now don’t get me wrong, I would follow Joss to the ends of the earth in a totally not creepy stalker way, but his habit of killing off his beloved characters without any kind of fanfare drives me bonkers. I can appreciate the artistic merit, as well as the shock value of committing such a heinous crime against fandom, but really, enough is enough. I’ve gotta wonder if Iron Man is gonna bite the dust in his The Avengers movie just after professing his undying love to Pepper Potts ground pepper.
So what do you guys think? Are heroic deaths and sad farewells cheesy or wonderful? Which on screen or on page deaths affected you the most? Which quick Whedon death have you still not forgiven him for?
Pepper Potts was totally one of the best things about the first Iron Man. Unfortunately, her awesomeness was given to the Black Widow in the second one and Pepper herself became little more than a screaming squeeze for our hero. What a shame.
Which really has nothing to do with you being Josh Whedon. He sounds similar to Aaron Sorkin, writer of the first five seasons of the West Wing, and who introduced awesome interesting characters only to have them totally disappear two episdoes later and NEVER be mentioned again.
Which again STILL has nothing to do with you being Josh Whedon. but then, when have my comments every really been on topic?
HUGS…
Of course you are not Joss Whedon. You created a video describing your blogging failures.
Umm. I have no clue how Joss Whedon is. Buffy? Never seen it.
If you actually get to know the character, then yes, I want some emotion and a big farewell. If he is truly the red shirt, who shows up for 5 min. before getting his brains blown out by taser fire, then whatever. I dont need every death in my books to have a big finale, but then I don’t read a lot of books with death in them, except the bad guys then I’m all for it. “Shoot him! Now!”
So in other words, I have no clue what I like.
I for one do not like the overblown death scenes where the author is obviously *trying* to make you cry, it just comes off as feeling manipulative. That being said, a properly done heroic death and heartfelt send off can be very poignant and important to the growth of the surviving characters. This is a very fine line to walk; in my opinion you have to think about the *characters* rather than the audience when writing these scenes. If you treat the characters with respect and have them react in realistic and meaningful ways then the reader will empathize with them and have a stronger emotional connection with them.
The one death I have still not forgiven joss for is Wash in Serenity, I loved that character!
BTW, was anyone else more upset when Colin Creevey died in Harry Potter than most of the others who died in the final battle?
I HATE when they kill off a character just for shock value or because it was “the brave thing” artsy fartsy crap. Some of the top of my head from Joss Whedon and others (without spoilers hopefully)
#1. Although I love LOST, I will never get over the final episode.
#2. The death at the end of Prison Break, not heroic just TOTALLY unnecessary
#3Who they killed off in Firefly and the final Buffy (although that could have been worse because it was originally going to be Xander)
#4Who is implied being killed in final episode of Angel- heroic maybe, maddening definitely!
#5: Most of the deaths in last Harry Potter, the one that happens earliest is the worst
And if Joss kills off Iron Man, I’d never forgive him!
Sad but true: the one death scene that always makes me blubber like a three year old Justin Bieber fan is the one at the end of Where the Red Fern Grows, and yes, I do read it again every couple of years.
BTW, if you watch that video I linked above you have to watch the whole thing; the best part comes at about 4:10 (anyone who has lived with a three year old will totally get it)
M. Nico’s first comment sums it up for me. I’m ok with a meaningless death if it suits the story and characters. I also agree with he and Michelle about Wash. That totally bummed me out.
At this point, I don’t think we are spoiling any one, so if Michelle is referring to Hedwig as the first death in the final Harry Potter, than I agree. I was actually angry when she was killed. It felt so unnecessary.
Michelle: I think Whedon killed Shepherd Book because he was mad that people found him more intriguing than River.
I can’t believe I didn’t think of this before, but Ianto’s death in the season 3 of Torchwood SERIOUSLY pissed me off. TOTALLY gratuitious and didn’t advance the story or the characters at ALL. But then the whole Children Of Earth thing kinda sucked anyway…
HUGS…
Polt you are absolutely right. (My own rant about the unforgivable Children of Earth fiasco at the website linked through my name.) But Russel T Davies has pretty clearly shown he’s a hack so he probably thought he was going to be all cool and hip by pulling a Joss in COE.
As a writer, if your dramatic point -isn’t- that death is banal and random, killing off a main character smacks of opportunism IMO. Particularly one that audiences have invested time and emotional energy in. Therefore in the series ‘Oz’, yes, you have main characters dying off left and right because that is part of the message of the program. To do it in Buffy or Firefly or Torchwood smacks to me of writers room discussions where they have to find a way to get out of a narrative corner or get ratings (a way other than innovative writing that is).
The Wire does a good job at handling the deaths of characters. A lot of characters involved in the drug trade die, but they die because of the nature of the characters and their situations leads to inevitable conflict. They die because other characters decide that they need to die, not because the writers want to add tension, boost ratings, or force a victory to have an arbitrary cost (I’m looking at your JW and RTD).
Polt: ditto, the whole COE felt gratuitous and unnecessary, from Ianto to Jack’s grandson. I like to pretend the whole thing didn’t happen.
On the other hand, on Gray’s Anatomy, every death of a character in more than two episodes is a big heroic or meaningful thing. Every. Single. Death. Bomb squad guy, Meredith’s mom, Denny, George, random old lady who’s husband loses it in the last season finale and the characters who died as a result… For a show set in a hospital, you would think that sometimes random death would just be a thing.
And I thought he earned Wash in Firefly. Loved the character, but that wasn’t really random, he had just heroically saved everyone else in the show with his mad pilot skillz.
Craig, you are an AMAZING writer, one of my favorite writers, in fact. I just wish you wrote even more. Speaking of more, is it time for another installment of the Frank-n-blog yet?
I like stories with rich deeply developed characters, and I want to mourn them when they die. I like for all deaths to have meaning.
I am honestly not familiar with many Whedon deaths. The death of Charlotte in Charlotte’s web, Sparrow in The Happy Prince, Kane in the Ninth Configuration, Nick Knight in Forever Knight, Jay Gatsby in The Great Gatsby, have been among the theatrical and literary deaths to impact me the most. I’m sure I am forgetting some.
Emma Thompson’ character Vivian Bearing’s death in the movie “Wit” is the one that reduces me to blubbering tears at every viewing.
And nearly every death (or “death”) in X-Men 3 (casual, off-screen, dramatic, and deserved) make me despise Brett Ratner and his producers with every fiber of my being…
Jere: It’s been a while since I watched Serenity, but my impression was that Walsh’s death was arbitrary. The writers had the characters go through a series of deadly situations and chose to have this particular character die in this particular scene. He died at that moment because the writers had decided that he would be the one who would pay the price for their survival and he was no longer needed for the survival of the other characters. Because it occurred toward the end of the story, it did nothing to establish the premise, and because it was a random act of nature, it did little to reveal anything about him or the other characters.
Andrew: We read Wit for my freshmen English class in college. It is an excellent story.
Andrew J: you are SO right!!! the death of Cyclops, the FIRST X-Men, is done off screen and once they find the glasses, basically ignored! Horrific!
HUGS….
Polt: Ratner and the writers/producers had such disrespect for the characters…I’ve seen X-men 3 ONCE and will never see it again. As for what Craig has posed, certainly deaths can either occur with a sympathetic meaningful weight behind them or a capriciousness that perhaps appropriately (shockingly) communicates the fleeting reality of our lives–and either approach could work in any given fiction….but to my mind, X-Men 3 is the perfect example of a movie that dispenses with its characters (in terms of lives, powers, etc.) with ZERO artistic or logical thought as to what the impact should be. The result is emptiness. Meaninglessness. Callousness (cash-in FX spectacular). All of which leads to either numbness or cynicism…which are the worst kind of “deaths” possible. Fiction of any kind should aspire to be better than that.
I would never confuse you with Joss Whedon. You are waaaay cuter.
I was bummed when Joss killed off the Wonder Woman movie. Boo. And it never bothered me when he killed off characters in Buffy or Angel. They had a way of returning in future epsiodes.
Anyone remember the show Thirtysomething? No? Just as Nancy recovers from ovarian cancer they kill off Gary in a car accident. Sucker punch.
Andrew J. I feel the same way about X-men 3. Regardless of the bastardization of a great story, the callousness with which they got rid of 3 major characters was inexcusable. To this day, I have only seen it once and refuse to purchase it.
I’m afraid I agree with Ryan, John, M. Nico, and Michelle about Wash. That really upset me.
Andrew — **EVERYTHING** about X-Men 3 was horrific, with the possible exception of the overly-obvious “when we say mutant, we mean gay” subplot about the “cure”. That movie was an abomination. It ruined the single greatest comic book story arc of all time — the Dark Phoenix saga. (Not that Marvel didn’t retroactively ruin it themselves; but I like to pretend the later stuff didn’t happen). I consider the entire movie non-canonical and of course Cyclops can’t have been killed.
I’m kiiiiinda bummed that I read this thread though because I never got around to seeing Children of Earth. I didn’t know about Ianto. I was upset enough about the deaths of frog-lips and Toshiko.
I loved Owen. Don’t be dissing Owen. Well he grew on me anyway and I wept (metaphorically) when he died.
I did too, Tam. And I hate Russel T Davies for gratuitously killing him in such an incredibly cruel and vicious way. I swear he hates his viewers.
Just because Owen had the palor of a corpse (even before he became one) and the lips of a frog (*shudder*) doesn’t mean I wasn’t sad when he died
I wasn’t sad to see Owen go, although the method used was a bit over the top. He was my least favorite character; very one dimensional and abrading.
My biggest problem with them killing Ianto was that it was a result of Jack acting completely out of character. If Jack had even a desperate plan that failed and resulted in Ianto getting killed, I would have less of a problem with it. Instead, Jack acts like a petulant child and everyone dies. It seemed like the writers needed something to motivate Jack beyond saving millions of children.
I would certainly need additional motivation. I mean really, children = bleck. Don’t let the door to the alien spacecraft hit you on the way out kiddies.
Craig — obviously you just haven’t tried them with the right seasoning; try them spit-roasted and with a nice marinade.
*sigh* as for Torchwood; guess the spoilerage is so over the red line that I don’t ever need to see COE.
But Ryan, that is *exactly* what I hated the most about the way the BSG reimagined series played out. The writers just had no respect for their characters or their viewers. They weren’t just making stuff up as they went; they were just shaking stuff up for the hell of it.
I will not tolerate bad words being said about BSG thank you very much. And I think you should still give Children of Earth a shot. Many people think it’s the best Torchwood there is. And I tend to think there’s a lot more good than bad in it.
Yeah but now I know what happens!!!! *harrumph*
And I am the first to say that the BSG “pilot” miniseries is arguably the finest science fiction show ever made for television. It made the hair on the back of my neck stand up; the soundtrack, the acting, just everything about it. I was a BSG fanatic but I simply don’t like how the series ended up, and it’s *because* I loved the show so much that I am so disappointed
Justin: I would still recommend that you watch it. Some of the other parts were really good.
I liked Children of Earth. I thought it was paced well and it kept my attention. Of course there are things that I didn’t like, but it is just a tv show.
I never really liked Owen and didn’t care when he was written out of the series. I liked Toshiko, but she was such a doormat. I wanted more from her.
All I will say is that I’m not convinced Owen is dead. The first rule “if you didn’t see the body, they aren’t dead”. As for Ianto, Does anyone remember Susie? Gloves come in pairs.
Justin, I think COE is a great piece of science fiction, but it’s a horrible Torchwood story. They’re almost irrelevant to the story. Despite how I feel about it, I too think you should see it. Just bear in mind, the more it progresses, in my mind, the worse it gets.
HUGS…